Tourism Tribe: how did it start, what did we learn?

Transcript of the podcast below: 

Adrian: Hi, everybody, Adrian Ames down here and welcome to That Bad Review, where I host the first podcast dedicated to the accommodation and tourism industries in the southern hemisphere. Today we’re talking to Liz Ward.

This is your first time listening and thanks for coming. Kind of big hello to our regular listeners. You can join the conversation at our Facebook group, it’s called That Bad Review. As usual, all the links will be in the show notes that you can find at thatbadreview.com.

Today on that bad review, which heading to Liz Ward, she’s the co founder and CEO of Tourism Tribe. We have a great conversation around Training Solutions for tourism operators. We talk about co-founding a successful business and we also chat about being a digital savvy small business owner.

So ladies and gentlemen, as always, I’m ready to get cracking and get the conversation started.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the latest edition of That Bad Review. Today I’ve got with me Liz Ward now Liz is the co founder and CEO of Tourism Tribe. Liz, welcome to the show.

Liz: Hi, Adrian, thank you so much.

Adrian: Now we were just chatting about, you’ve got a couple of little fans there waiting for you. And I might actually give you a bit of a pep talk or some applause during the conversation.

Liz: Ah, that’s right. I’m in my daughter’s house in Melbourne, just down here, actually for the Victorian Tourism Awards tonight because we’re a sponsor here. And she’s got these two little dogs and they’re like hanging out with me and enjoying the company.  So if they make any fun noises, that’s who they are.

Adrian: So what’s the names?

Liz: We have Kyle and we have Jill,

Adrian: Kyle and Jill. Well, if we hear from Kyle and Jill, we know what’s going on. Look, I’d love to hear just a little bit about you for the benefit of listeners if you don’t mind, just giving us sort of just a little bit of, sort of background on yourself and how you come about founding tourism tribe.

Liz: Sure. Thank you so much. Look, I’ve been in the world of technology and tourism for a long time well before we use the word digital, so, so my first entrée into digital strategy and digital marketing was when I was working for Tourism and Events Queensland and I got asked to project manage the development of their first ever destination website on this thing called the internet and I’m like, the ‘what’ you know?

So cast your mind back and we did some really pioneering stuff in Queensland in that, you know, Government Tourism Organisation because they had a really big wholesaling business then with SunLover holidays, they had 12 branch retail network. So we were creating websites, even business you know, even travel agents booking websites in the late 90s, which was pretty pioneering at the time.

And because I was naive to what wasn’t possible, I was saying to the developers, well, we’ve got all this data sitting here in the rest system. Let’s just get that out and make it look good and put pictures with it, because we’ve got them for the brochures. And let’s bring it all together. And the developers are looking at me like, we can’t do that. Why not? You know, so I just, you know, I was always kind of pushing the boundaries, because I didn’t know what wasn’t possible. And that was ok and then I went on to be asked to project manage the, really the concept of the Australian Tourism Data Warehouse. And that was, once again, pushing boundaries because I don’t know what’s what’s hard and what’s not possible.

And so I went on to project manage the design and development of that for the State Tourism Organisations and Tourism Australia who are all the shareholders. And then I kept going on the web stuff as well. And then I stopped out and did some international marketing for a couple of years. But then I went over and I was the CEO of the Australian Tourism Data Warehouse for 10 years. And that was really great because it was a national platform and to ensure that a piece of infrastructure like that was really going to have, you know, tangible value for the industry, we’ve had to keep really thinking hard on that when everything else was changing so quickly, like Google was getting into the travel space and social media was coming along.

And so really, really pleased that, you know, I did that for 10 years, the CEO and I was really pleased that it has stood the test of time and that the state tourism organisations, regional tourism organisations, and even Qantas, you know, use it as a as a source of content for their websites, etc. So it plays an important role. And that’s really great that that legacy is there. But after that, I went, you know what, it’s time now for me to have my own business. I really, you know, I’d been I’ve been trying to, you know, always maintain a really strong empathy for tourism operators, and because they were my customer and I was like, Okay, if I’m really going to understand what it’s like to be, you know, not knowing if you’ve got a pay packet or not, you know, next week, I’ve got to do it.

And I really wanted to so that was when I got together with my excellent business partner, Fabienne Wintle, and we we’d always brainstormed would bounce off each other and drive each other nuts with ideas about what we could do differently that would really assist the industry to be able to make the most of technology tools, because we could see like Fabie had her own business at the time, and she was running workshops across Australia. And she also had her own little digital agency. And at ATDW we have an educational tool kit and we’re doing this just isn’t cutting the master because what happens is you’ve got all these busy small business operators that come into workshops. They go, that’s great, you’ve taught me all this cool stuff, then they go back to the office, and it’s like, I don’t have time to do this, and I’ve got no one to help me.

And, you know, you know, the usual thing and, and you know, the numbers 90% of the tourism industry is small businesses. So you build the issues that go with that. So we would bounce off each other. We said, there’s got to be a better way. And the technology kind of caught up with our idea. And that’s when we joined forces beginning of 2015.

And we’ve got a business called Digital Coaching International, which is kind of a the company. But then we created the platform called Tourism Tribe to be the answer for a small business in tourism or medium sized business in tourism, those that are a bit strapped for, for the time and resources to really stay on top of the opportunities of technology and how quickly they’re changing. That no matter where they located they have access to learning and support. And so an online learning platform, that’s we’ve got lots of online workshops. We’re constantly running, a bit like you’re doing your podcast, we’re doing lots of interactive webinars and recording them, putting them together into courses and providing different support packages so that we and other experts can assist businesses, whether they’re, you know, sitting down at Angourie or, you know, sitting over at Karratha or you know, and then we do face to face training as well because nothing trump’s face to face like getting together face to face with a tourism operator and, you know, mentoring them and helping them set up their automated marketing or whatever it is. Nothing, nothing beats that so we still do a lot of work shopping, etc. and getting out there on the ground.

I was actually in Mauritius, when was that? end of October, I ran a two day digital tourism boot camp there and Mauritius. So we’re mostly Australia doing what we do. But we’re just starting because we’re still a young business. We’re under just under five years old. So we’re just starting really to get that pick up of, you know, other other places finding us online, thank goodness.

And because if our if our marketing online doesn’t work, then that’s not very good. And so that’s great. Yes. So we’ve got, we’ve got a community all up sort of over close to 5,000 people who are in tourism, usually businesses, we also have some tourism organisations, local government, people, consultants, those sorts of people as well. And we’ve got a few nice partnerships as well. We’ve got a partnership with Travel Massive and a few other organisations as well who are wanting to do things with us.

So we we’re just starting really I think in the in the lifecycle of the business we’re really starting to kind of find our feet now and, and work out what that original point of you know that motivation that we had to really find the right thing that helps businesses by using the right technology. I think we’re really getting there now. And that and I guess that’s not unusual with businesses and that they take a while to kind of really nail it and I think we’re just at that point now.

Adrian: I’d imagine it would have been pretty difficult or maybe a little bit intimidating actually taking the plunge to start your own video business. You mentioned that you you said look, it was something that you thought you had to do but but there’s always a bit of anxiety about taking the plunge to0.

Liz: Yeah, I’m really glad you asked me that. I dream because I think for one of the first times in my life, I it was absolutely taking the plunge but it was taking the plunge with incredible confidence that we wouldn’t fail, we would just correct. And I always believe that and it was a really weird state of mind because I thought, there’s no self doubt, where has that gone. And it’s that that that was the key for me to have the energy and confidence to keep going with it. And I wonder if that’s how, you know, great athletes feel when they’re really in the zone and you know it, but it’s like a mental attitude that failure is not an option. It’s just that we’ll keep correcting. And that really was the secret sauce. And I think it’s because the motivation and passion was so high. And we really, really believed in what we were doing. We also got a really big shot in the arm of confidence. We’d only just had the concept we made a little video about it, and we submitted it to the United Nations World Tourism Organisation, Innovation Awards. And we were a finalist, based on that video. So that was before we even built the website. We just sort of and so that gave us incredible confidence that we were onto something.

Adrian: It’s fantastic to to get that validation before you started.

Liz: Yeah, yes, it was it really

Adrian: and then look like you you’re referring we we we so it just it exemplifies the importance of having the strong partnership with Fabienne like, how did that come about? And was there you know, because look, having a great partnership and great collaboration, oh, really change your business, but to enter into an enterprise with another person I’d imagine. There. Did you have the relationship first, or did you build build it together? Or how how was that dynamic?

Liz: Well, I knew Fabienne because we had hired her as a consultant when I was the CEO of the Australian tourism data warehouse. So she played the key role in writing what we called the tourism aka at the time. So she in Australia and I, I dare say in the world, she had, you know, the best knowledge about what was needed by small businesses in tourism to help them understand the online world.

So you know, she, she really had it and so she was recommended. I actually met earlier somewhere else. We’ve done a bit of a speaking gig together in the Northern Territory. And then we hired her and so I built that relationship with her by paying her as a consultant.

But then she asked me to sort of play a role of mentoring she and her business partner at the time, their digital agency business. So I also got to see how she really thought about her own business too. And we just it’s a it’s a energy thing as well because when we do get together we would always be bouncing, you know, there’s certain people in your life that you really get a lot of energy from. And, and you click well that was that but I’d have to say we are entirely different in our personalities.

So and there’s, you know, a considerable age difference as well which is to my benefit, because she’s, you know, 16 years younger than me. So she’s got a different attitude to technology. I’ve got that incredible empathy with you know, the older people in our industry who are going: oh, God, I don’t know how to do that and I gotta look, if I can do it, you can do it, you know.

So, but you know if that really works, and also she is just, just her skillset her her strength in terms of digital integration, website, building, etc, is balanced by my strengths in strategy and customer relationships and, you know, people management and things like that.

So we just really complement each other. So I think we just got it was just the right fit. It was like the hand in glove. So
it works really well.

Adrian: Fantastic. Well, and the proof is in the pudding five years in, you’re getting a little bit of traction. And look, I’d imagine you’ve sort of seen a lot of change in those five years, like what have been some of the most, the most significant change that you’ve seen?

Liz: Yeah, look, I think what’s really meaningful for us is I think we’re ahead of the curve when we started Tourism Tribe. So yeah, people will like applauding us again. That’s fantastic. But what we really noticed now is the number of tourism operators who are going “Oh, yeah, I get this an online platform where I can get help and learn. Oh, webinars. Yep. I know what they are Oh, a members forum. Okay. I get that”. Whereas five years ago, we had to actually teach them what those things were. Whereas now, the market has caught up with what we’re doing. So that’s one change, which is good, because I always used to say, if they don’t grasp if they don’t start using digital technologies in five years, they’ll be out of business.

And so I think that’s what we’ve seen is that people who are now in business and staying in business are prepared to, to adapt.
In terms of the actual marketing environment, well, you know, I’ve got sort of this top nine list of list of the things that have changed so much. I think that the really key things I mean, you know, you get sick of hearing this and I don’t want to sound like a technology evangelist either, because I’m not, I’m not, I do not say, you got to use technology it’s the best thing ever, because it’s absolutely, you know, it’s not the best thing ever, you know, in some situations, it’s not but you’ve got to use it in the right way for your business at the biggest change.

I mean, we all know that the big drivers of change have been mobile technology and you know, the ability for the consumer and businesses to do business anywhere, anytime to find those holiday ideas anywhere anytime do their planning to their booking all of that we know all that. And social. So you know, we know that socials been a huge driver of people being able to share, you know, do the marketing for businesses. So McKinsey Consulting, I’ve got a stat, that two thirds of marketing is not done by marketers, it’s, you know, done by their customers.

And that goes to your, you know, core platform for these podcasts, the reviews as well, that speaks to that as well. So that socialization of information has been the big one. Those are those two big things there. And then couple that with personalisation, so, you know, Google algorithms that are changing every day, there are changes to the Google algorithms, our news feeds in social media platforms like Facebook and Instagram and TripAdvisor, you know, algorithms. They’re, they’re always changing to provide a more personalised experience for the consumer. So that’s something that we have to take the lead from as business operators or owners and say, well, we have to provide a more personalised experience because that’s what the consumers expect.

We know that providing a personalised, high quality experience to the customer in real life is incredibly important and is a differentiator for successful businesses that doing it online as well. So that so that personalisation is really key. And that, you know, you can play that out in all aspects of your marketing.

One of the big things we get asked about a lot and it has been a big shift is because of these the amount of content on social media and because of the Facebook algorithm changes over the last almost two years, the engagement and the the, you know, the sense of benefit that a tourism operator can get by posting on on Facebook and Instagram has gone right down. The average for travel and accommodation is under 1% or the mean engagement level is under 1% on Facebook, the travel and accommodation. So it we get asked a lot now about Facebook Advertising, you know, is that what I’ve got to do? And yes, it definitely needs to be there in the mix. And there’s a lot of things that you can do to improve your organic engagement as well. You know, there’s all the best practice stuff that we teach on there.

But what is a bigger issue is now what we can see, and this is through our own research and learning and tapping into what’s going on outside of Australia is it’s really important to start thinking about an integrated marketing approach that takes in your social media activity to generate leads. But it’s really going to be integrated into what we would like to call a trust funnel, you know, like a sales marketing funnel but engendering trust at each little interaction, whether it’s them having liked your Facebook page, or like to post or reacted to a Facebook ad that you’ve put out there, capturing the relationship each time into a data set and automating your marketing around that all based around your customer segments. So really building an automated marketing system for your marketing strategy. Because what we’ve where we’ve been to to this point with most businesses, is just doing single activities on these platforms. Like hopefully having a good online shop front on their website, maybe doing some blog posts, might be doing some Google ads. might be doing some Facebook ads. might be doing have an organic posting schedule. But it’s all just pieces not connected to build trust through each of those interactions so that you can eventually get enough little bites that they then go, I’m really liking the look of what they offer, I am going to book that. So that’s really been the big shift. And we can’t stop talking about this at the moment because we’re, we don’t want to see tourism operators keep spending their, because every tourism operator we speak to says I don’t have enough time, I don’t have enough time. Time is the currency. So we don’t want them to spend their time on these unconnected activities. We want to see it come together in an integrated approach, which means choosing the right tools and even if it’s starting off in a really simple way, putting it together, around their each of their customers before they become customers. And making the most of that relationship with them. Yeah.

Adrian: And that’s where the technology comes into it, doesn’t it? You know, because that helps time poor people collected all these little pieces of information and all these touch points and joins them all together in a meaningful way.

Liz:

Well, that’s right. And with the so if you think automated email marketing systems that’s kind of in there’s a range of small business solutions out there, and you know, where we can sort of put our finger on now a few of them that are kind of right size for smaller businesses. And that’s what that’s what that technology does. It allows you to automate your responses for each event, whether it is somebody clicking on that lead generation, you know, incredible offer on your website, or whether it is interacting with a certain thing on a web page or that Facebook ad whatever they do, you can have your response to that in a really nicely and appropriately created email response to that, personalised, and it’s automated. So it’s happening in the background, you’re not having to make any effort.

And what you’re not doing is sending out that newsletter twice a year to 2,000 people and going our open rate of what 2% nothing, no reaction that’s just gone. It’s just gone. It’s not worth doing. And if we’re pretty excited about that shift, because we can see what can be done about it.

Adrian: I think one of the advantages that I have is that I like back when I went to uni in 1994 and I did I I studied it and I was a bit of a geek back then. So I had the grounding in the technology. So it’s never really intimidated me, but I can see how the significant change that has happened in the 20 to 25 years since then, is intimidating for something and there’s always a new product to these days you look at you know, there’s always something new to learn or to engage with. So I think trying to take the fear and guiding people to what actually works for their business is a very valuable thing.

Liz: Oh, thank you. Yeah, look, I find it quite exhausting to be honest with you. I My God, I’ve got to learn another new thing today, please no no no no. But it’s a matter of you’ve got to accept that you just can’t be an expert at everything. You know, tourism, a good tourism operator, caravan park operator, you know, they’re very, very good at what they do on the ground with their customers and you know, they’ve got their real specialisations. They can’t be great at everything. So it’s about picking the right tools, I think and prioritising and going well if this is going to really connect with my ideal customer, we use, we use, we use that line a lot connecting with your ideal customer. But what I’ve realised the true meaning of that, and I’ve seen it in our own marketing for Tourism Tribe, as we’ve implemented automated email marketing and you know, having these sequences and connecting them in with those Facebook ads, etc. The people who connect are the same people who we’ve seen connect with us through other channels, so they’re still the same people. And they’ve got the propensity to use what we offer. It’s just that we weren’t talking to them in the right way on the right channels. So it’s really interesting. Yeah, so quite a journey.

Adrian: It’s interesting that people will actually use different channels to contact you. And I found even in my businesses, they’ll swap channels and try and keep the same conversation going, you know, they might be candy coating via email. And then next thing you get a Facebook message saying, Oh look, I’ve been chatting to you on email and Twitter and look, the challenge for the business operator is you know, the same people that actually have access to the email may not have the same access to the social. So connecting those dots

Liz: correct and having the technology that actually is able to tag that little interaction against that potential customer’s record. So they’ve done that and that that okay, that means that they’re really interested in this. So you know, let’s give them more information about it. Give them a fabulous video about it or some downloadable, fantastic recipe or something, you know, something that really means something to them. You know, it’s funny you say about different channels, just to one simple little thing and this is the and this is one of the top nine sort of trends that we talk about is the growth in online messaging. So you know how Facebook Messaging has just become a standard tool for people, online chats on websites standard, you know, people prefer to do that and a lot of cases than they do to pick up the phone. And so every tourism operator really needs to have that online chat plugin on their website. And you know that if they’re on a WordPress website, there’s plugins for that, but they can do that. Other website platforms should offer that as well. But then they can also integrate the Facebook Messenger chat as well as a little widget on their website. So they should all have that just to allow that interaction because we’ve had one client tell us that they’ve their website leads grew exponentially when they put that on where because people just popped on the website, and they went I’m just gonna ask I don’t I don’t have time to look through all of this beautiful information. Just ask the question?

Adrian: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think there’s a there is a fine line between being a tool and big being obtrusive or obstructive to your research to someone, some people don’t implement it very well. Yeah, gets in your face.

Liz: Yeah, it should be just, if it’s a nice little plugin widget, it should stay on the bottom of the screen, the you know, now mobile it’s going to pop up a little bit more, but they should all have that little x, you can cross that as well.

Adrian: And then look, so we talked about sort of change up till now like, what’s your crystal ball looking like? What what kind of change? Are we going to see into the future? We’re gonna see some more personalisation, of course, and use of algorithms and tools becoming more accessible to small business. So there any other changes that you can say?

Liz: Yeah, look, I think it’s all those three things you said. That’s all about data. Yes. You know, at the heart of it, that’s about data. So we will see, well, finance, tourism marketing organisations and big businesses personalise their online experience and they and all of the data that that they can get their hands on to support doing that. And they’ll collect data through that personalisation as well will then feed their Intel for their marketing planning. So it you know, it’s like they won’t be crystal balling like there won’t be any crystallising in marketing. The data doesn’t lie. That’s right. And with mobilisation, the data that’s available now to marketers because of being able to track where people are, combine that with other data sets like it could be data sets from Airbnb or credit card or you know, ATM data, credit card data or etc, you’ve got a very clear picture. Say for example, it could be that you get you find out that this person is willing to travel to the Outback to attend a certain event, you know, compared to a person who online shows interest in that event, or those people who actually go there, being able to profile their characteristics is so valuable because they’re actually prepared to travel and do it compared to these people that are just looking at it. So you can get to those sort of layers of consumer profiling as well. So I think that’s quite it’s a Yeah, I can hear people listening going, Oh, my God, big brother.

Adrian: Well, it’s there.

Liz: It is. It’s what’s happening now. That’s what’s happening now. And I’m sure that people listening have had the experience of being listened to on their phone like they might have been having a conversation in the car with their partner about you know I wouldn’t mind a Tesla one day or something. And next minute they’re getting Facebook ads about Tesla.

Adrian: It’s, it’s not just this freaky or carrots. It’s not reading your mind. It’s listening to you

Liz: know, so let’s put the technology aside or I can the big other trend is the passion point for me is reducing our travel carbon footprint. And more and more consumers are interested in giving their money to businesses who share the same values with them on the environment. And so I think genuinely, tourism operators have to ask themselves, what to what do they think, how do they care about it? What are they doing in their little local environment, in their business in their community? How they purchasing green practices that they’re have in the business? What are they doing and how are they communicating that to them Our audiences and target markets, because that is a story worth telling. And, and we need to all encourage each other to do simple things to, to, to do that.

Adrian: So very important as if someone’s making a purchase decision, are they going to give the money to someone who they don’t relate to, are are they going to give it to someone who shares values and they can relate to.

Liz:

Well, that’s it. That’s it. I think that value exchange, that’s what I like to call it is, is, you know, fundamentally important, you know, if you can find a way to communicate through the way you talk in your marketing on your website, the information you share the photos you share the videos you share, that show your values as a business operator, and as a tourism business and be honest about that. You are going to attract the right kind of, you know, people to you who you want to serve, and they want to pay you. So it’s just about being genuine, but thinking about what your values are, and then can and putting them in acting on them and then communicating them. Yeah.

Adrian: And look, it can’t just be piecemeal throw together, slap together thing you need to put some thought toward and involve the team and get some buy in and sort of turn it into the your culture as well. Okay?

Liz: For sure. And I’m sure you have spoken about this with other people you’ve interviewed about with, you know, creating a culture that is extremely open to feedback as well. So putting the customer at the centre of any decision you make, so if that if you’re brainstorming in your team about how do we become more environmentally friendly, is it good for the environment and is it good for the customer, you know, finding solutions that are good for the customer and making every decision based on that and then being really open to feedback because it’s a continual journey and the you know, there is great success stories of businesses who have that feedback, hungry culture, and the whole team station review the reviews every week, and they have a feedback wall and they, you know, they, they’re empowered to do things about it, and they have review management processes that they follow. You know, all of that it’s a great recipe for, for supporting that good culture.

Adrian: Yeah, it is for sure. And, you know, we mentioned off air reputation management is just so very important. And without the right level of reputation management, then, you know, you can do what you want, but you’re sort of you’re pushing the proverbial uphill aren’t you?

Liz:

correct. Absolutely correct when I’m running workshops, or doing any mentoring with businesses, so first area we go to. It’s let’s have a look: if I’m Your potential customer and I’m looking for options, you know, in your experience niche or in your destination. Let’s have a look what I see online. And if you’re not cutting the mustard, which I think is, you know, nudging just above an overall kind of 4 star or 4 bubble rating on whatever platform, that’s your first priority is to set that as a goal and get it up over there because I think psychologically will certainly for me and other people I speak to it’s a benchmark is a four.

And I firmly believe that 90% of your success comes from your reputation, and then the marketing, you know, your marketing strategy is to re-engage those customers. And to, you know, get them to recommend you and and come back and buy from you again, and to generate new leads that you can nurture through that trust funnel.

Adrian: Yeah, well Google punishes you if you have below four in a view search for best, you know, hotel in a town, if you’re 3.9 or below, you want your white display and the results. It’s very interesting to see that that is the magic number four, four or above?

Liz: Yeah, yeah, I certainly feel that’s where it is.

Adrian: So, hey, look, I’m just mindful of time and you look, you’ve been very generous with sharing your knowledge. And I just want to pull a little bit of extra knowledge out. I’ve got a bit of a legacy question for my kids. I’d love to ask all my guests. For some advice, I might give a younger version of themselves that will help them grease the wheels of life and look, I really would love to hear what what your answer to that question would be list.

Liz: Yeah, it’s good being my age and I’m glad I don’t have to exactly disclose that. But so experience is a wonderful thing. You know, I think it’s about loving what you do because if you love what you do, it’s not work. It really, you know, it’s a joy. It’s not hard you can, you can get loaded up with us you know you’re think I can’t do any more I’ve just got so much on my plate and then some other opportunity or come out and you think ‘yeah!’. But if you love what you do, you will you all manage that and you will make it happen I just loving what you do. And I say that also because I’ve learned from my kids. So my kids were somewhat older than your kids. But they I’ve got three kids and two of them, one is one is at a crossroads at the moment and seeking out what he really, really loves. But the other two are driven by passion and they love what they do and they work in the entertainment arts kind of area. And based on their parents’ genes – it’s kind of unusual that they’ve landed there but  we must have demonstrated something that allow empowered them to be passion driven about their careers. S

So one is a writer for TV and one is a comedian – stand up comedian. And they’re, you know, really driven by, by their passion. And so I would say, I’ll feed from that for your kids as well. You know, sort of just really look for what you love and make it happen. Because then it will every day working will be no work life balance, you know it’s just life. It’s just your life.

Adrian: Fantastic That’s great. Great advice. Thank you so much Liz, hey  If anyone listening would like to reach out and start a conversation with yourself or find out some more information on Tourism Tribe, what’s the best way?

Liz:  jump onto tourism tribe calm and just you know, jump in there, have a look around. There’s some, you know, free resources, you can sign up for like a free series of marketing tips. And there’s also our community support group on Facebook as well. So that’s called “tourism operators who want to improve their business”. So if they just do a search for, for that tourism operators want to improve their business they can, if they’re a tourism business, they can join that group. And that’s, that’s, you know, really great for sharing as well across the industry.

Liz: that’s great, thanks. We’ll put all that in the show notes. And look, Kyle and Jill have been very well behaved. My hat’s off. Oh my gosh.  Thanks again, so much for taking some time out of your busy schedule. All the best with Tourism Tribe. I think maybe we’ll touch base in 12 months or 24 months time and I can’t wait to hear some of the numbers that you’ve you’ve got, then So, yeah, thank you very much for your time.

Adrian: Thanks very much, Adrian. It was my absolute pleasure.